End of Christianity...

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 08:03 AM

"you guys twist his words and attack him vigorously:

Responding is not an attack. Questioning the validity and meaning of statements is not twisting.

"and gotch likes to go on bout the quran, but if everything in the quran is to be taken literally, then everything in the bible, including the old testament, should be taken literally, i. e. first child into slavery etc..."

Absolute hogwash. No two text should ever be bunched together due to someones personal and uninformed views that they are somehow the same.

Each stand alone, are in no way mystically connected.

We must view them for what they are and for what they say. What may be misunderstood here is that I am not completely comfortable with the violence of the Old Testament.

In fact my personal views are that of a completely "New Law". That only the New Testament is of of real importance to me personally. But this debate should not be about personal views. Although you and 13 can't seem to avoid injecting personal prejudices into it.

However, a reading of it does confirm it (the Old Testament) to be a narrative history (as I have said umpteen times) while a reading of the Quran confirms it to be an ongoing directive.

I don't believe it takes an extremely high intelligence level to understand the difference and how the difference could have an effect on the actions of those reading and adhering to the teaching of the text.

If one tells you of past events, no matter how violent, that is not likely to encourage even the most fervent believer to go out an commit like violence.

On the other hand, a religious text such as the Quran which does not read as a historical narrative, but instead issues direct commands for the taking of violent actions by those reading and taking to heart the text can reasonably be assumed to influence a degree of violent behavior.

Again, the difference is exactly the same as a father telling his sons about his service in war and his having killed enemy combatants and that same father instructing his sons to kill anyone who does not believe as they do. Which do you think would have a higher probability to result in violent acts by his sons?

**sup-rbeast** · April 22nd, 2009, 08:23 AM

....have we determined who's pissed the furthest yet?

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by sup-rbeast

....have we determined who's pissed the furthest yet?

Apparently it's not about who, but instead about why and how much

One advantage (if you will) that I've always felt that I had in these type of exchanges is that nothing I've ever seen on a message board has ever actually made me angry.

I debated a fairly well know atheist from Canada almost daily for about 5 years. Yes....I just said FIVE years. We exchanged on a variety of theist subjects. At first he tried a lot of name calling and personal attacks. After a few months he found that they actually harmed his argument and that I was not going to respond in kind so he stopped.

I noticed that although I changed very few of his ideas I did change his approach to others. To this day he uses a much "kindlier, gentler" method of getting his point across.

We also became good friends.

BTW, on the subject of the Quran being a directive and the Old Testament being a narrative history he would be in agreement with me. Why, because he is familiar with both text.

**steer** · April 22nd, 2009, 06:54 PM

Gotch won....
he went the furthest lol

**R13** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:04 PM

Not sure where you got your numbers, they look like the Eurobarometer numbers except you inverted two very important ones in your favor, naughty boy....

Those numbers were copied and pasted from the same wikipedia you got them from, wasn't altered in any way. If you scrolled down and looked, it said that the atheist rates were 46% to 85%.

Also pulled this from a religious site...

"Sweden relinquished its claim of Lutheranism as its State religion in 2000 and now boasts one of the lowest percentage rates of belief in God in the western world. Sweden can safely lay claim to being one of Europe's "least Christian" nations. A poll from 2006 conducted by Dagens Industri revealed Swedes have far more trust in major Swedish businesses, public television, Swedish universities, and the central bank than in the Swedish Church. As the older generation of Swedes passes away, the percentage of reproducing believers decreases. Only five percent of the population regularly attends church."
countries/sweden

But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?

----"Because they have been "officially" announced by the communist gov, big difference."

Exactly, thank you

Not sure if you understand, but that's just the announcement by those communist gov..and I don't think a communist gov really "represents its people". But I never mentioned one communist country, I mentioned real ones that weren't communist.

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:37 PM

"Those numbers were copied and pasted from the same wikipedia you got them from, wasn't altered in any way. If you scrolled down and looked, it said that the atheist rates were 46% to 85%."

Not sure how they got altered but they were and still are altered. Here is what you posted on page 17 of this thread:

* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".

Here is what that page reads:

23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"

Take note of lines 2 and 3.

The poll showing a 46% to 85% atheist rate was conducted by Phil Zuckerman. In case you don't know, Zuckerman is an atheist with an agenda bigger than his ego, which is bigger than Texas. It would be like me quoting a poll conducted by the PTL club.

If you continue to read on it states that another poll showed the percentage at 17%. I'd go with it, really, not just saying that. Using Phil Zuckerman as a source in a serious debate will get you discredited fast than showing up without pants.

**R13** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:47 PM

Not sure how they got altered but they were and still are altered. Here is what you posted on page 17 of this thread:

* 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
* 23% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
* 53% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".

Here is what that page reads:

23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God".
53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force".
23% answered that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force"

It does say that now and it may be true. But honestly when I read it and pasted it, it was just like that. But it could be the other way like you did. Still believe it is about 60 percent.

"The poll showing a 46% to 85% atheist rate was conducted by Phil Zuckerman. In case you don't know, Zuckerman is an atheist with an agenda bigger than his ego, which is bigger than Texas. It would be like me quoting a poll conducted by the PTL club."

"If you continue to read on it states that another poll showed the percentage at 17%."

That was 1 poll. Obviously there are a lot more that have them in very high numbers.
And those numbers were taken as an average from all of the polls taken and that is where he found the numbers, not really one poll made by him from what I understand. I also used the religious site that wouldn't be biased towards it, Sweden IMO has an atheist majority.

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 07:50 PM

"But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?"

Since you have repeatedly stated that we would be better off with a higher atheist rate and a lower rate of believers I assume that quality of life would be better under such circumstances in YOUR opinion?

That poll is about quality of life.

Using the Eurobarometer poll here are the approximate atheist rates for the top five. I stopped there for reasons of time:

Iceland - 11%
Norway -17%
Canada -16%
Australia -19%
Ireland -4%

All about or slightly lower than the U.S. rate with the exception of Ireland which is much lower.

Why are the people of these countries able to have such a high quality of life with so many dang nasty Christians roaming around?

********BUT AGAIN I STILL ASK, DID JESUS CHANGE THE LAW CONCERNING THE STONING OF AN ADULTERER AND AN EYE FOR AN EYE AND THE EATING OF PORK?*************

**Gotch** · April 22nd, 2009, 08:50 PM

"But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?"

I did take your original point in a different direction than you intended, I did this due to not carefully reading the entire subject. My bad....

But, I think it was still valid in its own right.

Now, as I remember your contention was that France, Japan, and (Sweden?) had a high rate of atheists and among the worlds highest morals?

My first response would be that you provided no information to back that statement.

My next response would be that Japan is actually very religious, just not Christian. I believe about 90% identify themselves as Buddhists, Shinto, or a mixture of the two.

Next would be that I feel it has been established fairly strongly that Sweden's atheist rate is no higher than ours, Dr. Zuckerman aside.....

Next would be, I ain't so sure those three actually have high moral standards.

**R13** · April 25th, 2009, 12:20 AM

Originally Posted by Gotch

"But again I still ask, what did the UN survey have to do with it?"

I did take your original point in a different direction than you intended, I did this due to not carefully reading the entire subject. My bad....

But, I think it was still valid in its own right.

Now, as I remember your contention was that France, Japan, and (Sweden?) had a high rate of atheists and among the worlds highest morals?

My first response would be that you provided no information to back that statement.

My next response would be that Japan is actually very religious, just not Christian. I believe about 90% identify themselves as Buddhists, Shinto, or a mixture of the two.

Next would be that I feel it has been established fairly strongly that Sweden's atheist rate is no higher than ours, Dr. Zuckerman aside.....

Next would be, I ain't so sure those three actually have high moral standards.

Wait, you admit to atleast 17% are atheists, right? But we have 3-9%, thats about twice the percentage.

And why wouldn't they?